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	<title>Comments on: America And Europe: Faulty Comparison 1</title>
	<link>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/</link>
	<description>Challenge The Status Quo</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Amarie</title>
		<link>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-20674</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-20674</guid>
					<description>I was trying to find some information about the international testing of students and where it is administered or what it is comprised of (language skills, math, geography, etc.) and I came across this blog.  I know that this posting will most likely be ignored, but hey, I got to get this off my chest.  I have been reading all of the comments posted and I must say something as a student of the U.S. school system and a teacher in Europe that an international test of secondary schools in Europe and the U.S. is not a realistic comparison.  These are different systems and different cultures, which focus on different subjects and have different requirements.

Students in the country where I teach are placed into different schools according to their test results, and their family's guidance early on.  They will either go to a trade school or to a university preparation school.  Their classmates progress with them and there is less choice, or room for extra-curricular classes i.e. political science, criminology, photography, film, auto mechanics, debate, etc.  The students study for the final examinations that they take during their last year.  This last year is the equivalent to the senior year in U.S. secondary schools.  The students are placed in a classroom that stays together as they progress.  The students know what is needed from them to pass these tests and they progress with a group, which also gives them a sense of comradery.  This is completely different from the U.S. school system.  It is like comparing the public schools to the prep schools in the U.S.  Who do you think is going to come out on top?

Something that is quite rare here is the combination of both school and work.  It is very rare to find someone who is in secondary school and working.  There is a clear dedication to studies without the distraction and stress of a job on the side.  Not that they do not have free time, there is a lot of that, but students here tend to not risk the responsibility overload.

I disagree that if you take people from the same age group in both parts of the world that Europe would still come out on top.  The school where I work is a private institution that helps people prepare for that same exam that is taken in the "prep schools".  The difference is that my students are those that chose not to go to school, did not pass the exam, or did the trade school instead, but then later decided that they wanted to go to the university.  The majority of the students in the school are similar to the GED students in the U.S., because it is also the same concept.

Schools in the U.S. do differ.  I remember being ahead of my age level in science while in Alaska, because that level was taught at a younger age in my school in Washington.  My history classes were better in Alaska, but it’s all relative!  I cannot say that all schools in Alaska are bad or that all the schools in Washington are better.  It was one teacher, one school and one year to compare with another, and that does not make me an expert on anything.  But I do know that if I am going to blow my own horn about how superior my education was or is then I would check my spelling and grammar before posting my comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was trying to find some information about the international testing of students and where it is administered or what it is comprised of (language skills, math, geography, etc.) and I came across this blog.  I know that this posting will most likely be ignored, but hey, I got to get this off my chest.  I have been reading all of the comments posted and I must say something as a student of the U.S. school system and a teacher in Europe that an international test of secondary schools in Europe and the U.S. is not a realistic comparison.  These are different systems and different cultures, which focus on different subjects and have different requirements.</p>
<p>Students in the country where I teach are placed into different schools according to their test results, and their family&#8217;s guidance early on.  They will either go to a trade school or to a university preparation school.  Their classmates progress with them and there is less choice, or room for extra-curricular classes i.e. political science, criminology, photography, film, auto mechanics, debate, etc.  The students study for the final examinations that they take during their last year.  This last year is the equivalent to the senior year in U.S. secondary schools.  The students are placed in a classroom that stays together as they progress.  The students know what is needed from them to pass these tests and they progress with a group, which also gives them a sense of comradery.  This is completely different from the U.S. school system.  It is like comparing the public schools to the prep schools in the U.S.  Who do you think is going to come out on top?</p>
<p>Something that is quite rare here is the combination of both school and work.  It is very rare to find someone who is in secondary school and working.  There is a clear dedication to studies without the distraction and stress of a job on the side.  Not that they do not have free time, there is a lot of that, but students here tend to not risk the responsibility overload.</p>
<p>I disagree that if you take people from the same age group in both parts of the world that Europe would still come out on top.  The school where I work is a private institution that helps people prepare for that same exam that is taken in the &#8220;prep schools&#8221;.  The difference is that my students are those that chose not to go to school, did not pass the exam, or did the trade school instead, but then later decided that they wanted to go to the university.  The majority of the students in the school are similar to the GED students in the U.S., because it is also the same concept.</p>
<p>Schools in the U.S. do differ.  I remember being ahead of my age level in science while in Alaska, because that level was taught at a younger age in my school in Washington.  My history classes were better in Alaska, but it’s all relative!  I cannot say that all schools in Alaska are bad or that all the schools in Washington are better.  It was one teacher, one school and one year to compare with another, and that does not make me an expert on anything.  But I do know that if I am going to blow my own horn about how superior my education was or is then I would check my spelling and grammar before posting my comment.
</p>
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		<title>by: Education-Comparisons &#171; Premanand&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-17831</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-17831</guid>
					<description>[...] There was also another discussion on the same blog about USA education vs Europe http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/. There are many such comparative studies on the internet.  But here general conclusion is always that Europe is definitely lagging US.  Some studies are even aimed at finding the cause for this. Example http://www.oenb.at/de/img/paper_krueger_tcm14-10448.pdf. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] There was also another discussion on the same blog about USA education vs Europe <a href="http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/." rel="nofollow">http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/.</a> There are many such comparative studies on the internet.  But here general conclusion is always that Europe is definitely lagging US.  Some studies are even aimed at finding the cause for this. Example <a href="http://www.oenb.at/de/img/paper_krueger_tcm14-10448.pdf." rel="nofollow">http://www.oenb.at/de/img/paper_krueger_tcm14-10448.pdf.</a> [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-16805</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-16805</guid>
					<description>And I would never say that I am beyond criticism. However, when I read arguments that don't seem to take into consideration the things that I've already said, you're right that I'm going to repeat myself. As for those who have used first hand experience, I use that same type of experience right back: I've never heard of the test, none of the students in my classes has heard of that test, none of the parents I've talked to in my district have heard of the test, I've never seen released text questions, my credential school never mentioned the test, my district does not ever emphasize or mention the test. I'm arguing because I believe in things. What do you believe in? Maybe we agree.

When we distill things like "Best Educated" and "Worst Educated" down to performance on a single test, we're in trouble. You want me to offer a solution? Stop basing the quality of education on single tests taken by small test populations as stand ins for entire nations.

A single man certainly does have to take into account all the variables. That's Stossel's job when he creates a report like this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I would never say that I am beyond criticism. However, when I read arguments that don&#8217;t seem to take into consideration the things that I&#8217;ve already said, you&#8217;re right that I&#8217;m going to repeat myself. As for those who have used first hand experience, I use that same type of experience right back: I&#8217;ve never heard of the test, none of the students in my classes has heard of that test, none of the parents I&#8217;ve talked to in my district have heard of the test, I&#8217;ve never seen released text questions, my credential school never mentioned the test, my district does not ever emphasize or mention the test. I&#8217;m arguing because I believe in things. What do you believe in? Maybe we agree.</p>
<p>When we distill things like &#8220;Best Educated&#8221; and &#8220;Worst Educated&#8221; down to performance on a single test, we&#8217;re in trouble. You want me to offer a solution? Stop basing the quality of education on single tests taken by small test populations as stand ins for entire nations.</p>
<p>A single man certainly does have to take into account all the variables. That&#8217;s Stossel&#8217;s job when he creates a report like this.
</p>
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		<title>by: james</title>
		<link>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-16803</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 09:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-16803</guid>
					<description>I will not post my opinion on the actuall matter here, mainly because it is still forming, but i am now attending a community college in the U.S.(one of the lowest educated states) in hopes of someday becoming a pharmacist, if that gives any insight on how i am beginning to think. What i do want to note is your attitude Todd. You deffinately have a very good knack for argument, however you tend to repeat your positions when you are not able to prove someone wrong. And that is exactly what you are doing Todd, trying to prove people wrong, without any actuall care as to what to do. Not once in your retorts to these peoples comments have you offered a solution based on new information or even that which you already stated. You simply argue for the sake of arguing. I am not going to be you and say that you are wrong, but I am going to call you out point blank on being closed minded. You started this post by implying that Stossel was not taking all of the frightening "variables" into consideration, not that one man should have to, and then when some of these are explained to you from first hand experience(the unknown international test) you simply repeat that it is unknown and do not acknoledge that it was given to you in detail. 

"I don’t know what to tell you about that international test other than I have never heard of it, the standards that it assesses, or any released test questions. I don’t know of any other teachers who are busily preparing their students for this international test or who even know that test exists!" --7/12/207 8:48am

Look im not saying that Stossel, Maureen, Linda, or even I are beyond criticism. What im saying is neither are you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will not post my opinion on the actuall matter here, mainly because it is still forming, but i am now attending a community college in the U.S.(one of the lowest educated states) in hopes of someday becoming a pharmacist, if that gives any insight on how i am beginning to think. What i do want to note is your attitude Todd. You deffinately have a very good knack for argument, however you tend to repeat your positions when you are not able to prove someone wrong. And that is exactly what you are doing Todd, trying to prove people wrong, without any actuall care as to what to do. Not once in your retorts to these peoples comments have you offered a solution based on new information or even that which you already stated. You simply argue for the sake of arguing. I am not going to be you and say that you are wrong, but I am going to call you out point blank on being closed minded. You started this post by implying that Stossel was not taking all of the frightening &#8220;variables&#8221; into consideration, not that one man should have to, and then when some of these are explained to you from first hand experience(the unknown international test) you simply repeat that it is unknown and do not acknoledge that it was given to you in detail. </p>
<p>&#8220;I don’t know what to tell you about that international test other than I have never heard of it, the standards that it assesses, or any released test questions. I don’t know of any other teachers who are busily preparing their students for this international test or who even know that test exists!&#8221; &#8211;7/12/207 8:48am</p>
<p>Look im not saying that Stossel, Maureen, Linda, or even I are beyond criticism. What im saying is neither are you.
</p>
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		<title>by: Angela</title>
		<link>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-16470</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.toddseal.com/rodin/2006/02/faulty-comparison-american-public-schools-versus-the-world/#comment-16470</guid>
					<description>I have three young children in the public school system in NYC.  According to the city wide testing system, our school district ranks as "the best" in NYC.  ( real estate sales people use this as a pitch to sell houses in our area all the time.) What many aren't aware of is that from the day these kids walk into the classroom in September until the day they take the city wide exam, the kids are taught to take "the test". They are not taught to learn, but taught how to pass the test, which make their schools look good.  By the time the kids take the exam, they know it so well that they score very high. Is this a accure measure of what our children are capable of?  How will it benefit them when they are up against foreign students competing for college placement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have three young children in the public school system in NYC.  According to the city wide testing system, our school district ranks as &#8220;the best&#8221; in NYC.  ( real estate sales people use this as a pitch to sell houses in our area all the time.) What many aren&#8217;t aware of is that from the day these kids walk into the classroom in September until the day they take the city wide exam, the kids are taught to take &#8220;the test&#8221;. They are not taught to learn, but taught how to pass the test, which make their schools look good.  By the time the kids take the exam, they know it so well that they score very high. Is this a accure measure of what our children are capable of?  How will it benefit them when they are up against foreign students competing for college placement?
</p>
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